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Unread May 27th, 2007, 12:20 PM   #1
Natwraggie
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Animal Rights

Ok, i have gotten really annoyed these past weeks. I've seen rabbits hung outside a shop, i've seen lambs been taken to a farm so they can be slaughted in a sly way. I would become a vegeterian but it would be harder work for my mum, so i can't become vegeterian yet. But the point i'm trying to get across, why do we need to eat animal meat, when they are other protiens out there that we can eat like, "Quorn" "Beans" etc. I really don't think that animals should be slaughted just so they can feed us.

What gets me more angry, is people who wear animal fur, where is the respect. Many celebrites where animal fur, and i think that is being selfish. People are killing animals just so they can glamour themselves up., and i think its unfair. Everyday, animals are probably really scared of getting caught then killed, just for us. We don't really give them anything.

I get annoyed, when i get the feeling that animals are being used for testing medicines.

What are everybody elses opinions about this?
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Unread May 27th, 2007, 12:28 PM   #2
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I understand and care about animal rights and all, but I also really like meat. :| That's all I have to say.
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Unread May 27th, 2007, 12:34 PM   #3
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I'm the biggest animal extremist I've ever known but I don't like going overboard about it. I know alot of people don't care much for animals and I try my best to empathize with that, and get across to them with reasonable points, not ones that I know nobody is going to accept.
So I'm going to say this: We have every right to eat meat.
A lion will kill a wildebeest and a fox will kill a rabbit, because that's just the way it is. Circle of Life. Foodchain. Carnivores eat other meat. It's natural.
Farming however, is a different matter. I agree we should not kill millions of animals each day to feed us, kill millions and then waste so much, give them no life to begin with and raise them just to kill them. Give them a life which is hell and then just slaughter them. That... disgusts me |: Nature is sad, as animals do kill one another to survive. That's terrible and all but that's the way it is, the world is cruel. But farming is just unnatural and horrible. I hate it ._.

Fur is just... I hate celebrities who wear fur. It's just pure evil. I don't understand how somebody could be so heartless. Just... I don't care what excuses they come up with, wearing fur is just horrible. The thought of wearing an animal that was killed (or many killed for that matter) just for fashion and to look good... it's sick...

I only use products that have 'not tested on animals' on them |: Okay, so it's not 100% reliable but it's better than nothing. I tend to not buy that many things (no make-up or beauty products for meee) that could possibly be tested on animals anyway. That lowers the chances.
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Unread May 27th, 2007, 12:39 PM   #4
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I'm a vegetarian ^__^

I will say this. Yeah I was a meat eater before; and I wont deny that I liked the taste. But; 4 years on, I can't even remember what it tastes like. There are so many vegetarian alternatives that we have today. Vegetarian foods that are even made to taste like meat; the only difference is; we're not killing an animals life for it.

Yeah animals eat other animals; but animals arent in a society like we have. They don't really have any other options. We do.

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Unread May 27th, 2007, 12:45 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamu
Fur is just... I hate celebrities who wear fur. It's just pure evil. I don't understand how somebody could be so heartless. Just... I don't care what excuses they come up with, wearing fur is just horrible. The thought of wearing an animal that was killed (or many killed for that matter) just for fashion and to look good... it's sick...


That also reminds me of Celbrity Big Brother, when Pete was wearing that Gorilla coat, that was sick.

Yeah, and meat is nice, and its hard to get away from it, but i'd still like to get away from it.
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Unread May 27th, 2007, 12:52 PM   #6
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The important distinction is the difference between animal RIGHTS and animal WELFARE.

I am fiercely pro animal welfare.
Im not so keen on most of the issues in animal rights.

Animal rights are about not using animals for anything, not interferring with animals at all, some are even as extreme as to say we shouldn't keep pets as it infringes on their freedom, and of course, its absolutely intolerant of the idea of animals as food.

Animal welfare is about making sure animals have good lives, free from fear, pain, stress, discomfort, and they are cared for well. This means the meat industry is a-ok, as long as the animals are killed humanely and live good lives before they're killed. In this respect, I have NO problems with the meat industry. The food chain is the food chain, and its never been something that upsets me. Im very in tune with nature, and the food chain is simply part of it.
There are some species who are simply prey animals and if it isn't us as humans killing and eating them, then its a lion or a wolf or some other predator.
I do NOT support abuse of farm animals. I hate factory farms, I hate the way some meat animals are treated: you don't need to be a vegetarian to be opposed to animal abuse.
But not all farms are like this. Many take great care of their animals and when they're finally killed, they are killed humanely and quickly. You can be opposed to factory farming but still eat meat. You simply need to research where your meat is coming from.

But living a life with plentiful food, space and, at the end of your life, being killed quickly and efficiently, is better than being ripped to bits by a wolf, in my opinion. We just need to make sure its the GOOD farms we support, not the factory farming and animal abuse.

So no, I don't feel at all guilty about the meat industry IF its done right and the animals are treated well. And Im one of the biggest animal lovers there is.

However, I am very much an advocate of animal welfare. I despise animal testing, of all sorts, I hate circuses using animals, I dislike most zoos, I dislike the fur industry, I will not tolerate abuse of animals in any form.
I run a rat rescue home, and some of the things people do to their pets which ensure they end up with me is sickening. I work part time at the RSPCA and again, you see some atrocious animal abuse. I've worked in kennels most of my adult life, voluntarily, with abused or abandoned dogs. There are few things more important in my life than animal welfare.

But animal rights are much more extreme. A lot of people confuse the two. Most people are pro animal welfare, not animal rights.
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Unread May 27th, 2007, 01:01 PM   #7
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They is a farm close to where i live, which slaughter sheep in the most horrible. I'm not going to say how they do it, because i don't want to upset anyone, but that what annoys me the most, when they kill them in such a vile way.
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Unread May 27th, 2007, 01:02 PM   #8
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I agree with animal rights, but I could never be a vegetarian.

And that animals were, and are still fundamental for our medicine development, as sad as it may be.


However, fur and such other vanity things are completely unessesary in my opinion.
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Unread May 27th, 2007, 01:02 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy
You can be opposed to factory farming but still eat meat. You simply need to research where your meat is coming from.

As much as I agree, it is just as easy to buy vegetarian meat... lots out there, and it tastes so similiar.. easy to get used to...
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Unread May 27th, 2007, 01:07 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natwraggie
I get annoyed, when i get the feeling that animals are being used for testing medicines.
Well geeze, I certainly don't! I think it's sad that it is, as far as I know, the only thing we can do for testing. I'd be getting really angry if there was a way to test medicine that doesn't involve any animal, including humans, buuut as far as I know there isn't.

I personally really like medicine. C: Especially when it can cure potentially deadly diseases. In both humans and other animals.

Cosmetic testing is pure evil, though.

I don't have any problem with simply eating meat. My problem is where it comes from. Factory farms are disgusting. Eating meat in itself, though, I think it's fine. Other animals eat meat and meat is a staple in human diets. Theoretically it's not needless cruelty to eat meat. I'm not saying everybody needs meat and that people can't do well without it, though.

I however don't have the resources to buy meat from a family farm. In the future, hopefully, I will, but I currently can't. Much less buy specialized vegetarian meat substitutes. :| And, um, I like meat, so. I'm feeling rather hypocritical at the moment. :C

Also not very good at balancing my diet, so if I chopped out meat entirely I'd probably end up even more unhealthy.

I'd still be killing animals anyway, by feeding my cats. Even though kibble is all... freaking grain crap that gives cats DIABEETUS. But that's another rant.
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Unread May 27th, 2007, 01:15 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamu
As much as I agree, it is just as easy to buy vegetarian meat... lots out there, and it tastes so similiar.. easy to get used to...

My brother is a vegetarian, as is my best friend, so I have and do eat the meat substitutes now and then and really? I hate them. I don't think they taste much like meat at all. Quorn is probably the best one I've tried, but was that not recently linked to a health scare?
Either way, bleh, not for me.

I just don't see any real REASON why people should be guilt tripped into being vegetarian. I have no problem with veggies, as I said above, two people who are very close to me are vegetarian. But I don't think its the 'better' way of living or the more compassionate way or anything people should feel like they HAVE to do. People sometimes act as if being veggie is something we really all should be doing but I don't see why.
Its not really like that for me. I simply have no moral objection to the meat industry, when done RIGHT, so have no guilt about eating well farmed, properly cared for meat.
I do have objections to the hideous way some farm animals are treated, and I'd argue as fiercely as any vegetarian that that needs to stop.

But the act of eating meat is something Im perfectly at ease with doing and do not feel any need to cease doing.
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Unread May 27th, 2007, 01:24 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vekke
Well geeze, I certainly don't! I think it's sad that it is, as far as I know, the only thing we can do for testing. I'd be getting really angry if there was a way to test medicine that doesn't involve any animal, including humans, buuut as far as I know there isn't.

There are. Many. Groups such as the BUAV would not be campaigning to ban all animal testing if this were not the case. Im fiercely opposed to animal testing, cosmetics and drugs, for several reasons but one of them is simply how dangerous and potentially damaging it is to humans.
People who oppose animal testing are not anti-human nor do we want to see humans suffering, nor do we place animal lives above human lives. Therefore, if torturing animals really was the best way to get medicines, you can bet that we'd have to grudgingly accept it.

But its just not. So many people have died or been made seriously ill after drugs which tested safe for certain animal species later proved fatal or very dangerous to humans. We're not the same species as a rat, why should results on rats tell us anything about ourselves?
Im perhaps a little more emotionally involved in this than most as I have 17 rats.
Whenever I see a white rat in a lab with screws in its brain, being forced to inhale paint fumes, being injected, I look over at Jacob, my white rat, and as far as Im concerned, what is the difference?

Rats are the most commonly used species in labs, NOT because they provide the best model for human biology, but because they're cheap and they breed quickly. That alone should tell you that it isn't about what is best for humans, but about what is cheapest and most easily available.
People are just now beginning to realise how wrong it is to use primates in research due to their extreme intelligence and ability to feel suffering.
A rat is as intelligent as a toddler, and yet no one cares when they're abused.

Labs have recently admitted that 10 years of testing on monkeys has now all been in vain due to 'unexpected species differences'. The UK tabloids did a full page spread on it recently.

Frankly, though I probably do value the lives of animals at LEAST as much as humans, Im not simply some animal loving nut-job who wants all humans killed and all animals freed.
My objection to testing on animals is as much because I don't want my friends and family being given unsafe drugs as it is my desire to not see animals tortured.

If you have seen some of the things I've seen, its extremely hard to ever have any time for the animal testing industry.
I USED to. I didn't start out being opposed. I was one of those people who thought it was ok as long as it was ONLY for vital drugs and there was no other alternative. But I slowly, over the years, researched the subject and realised just how corrupt, secretive and useless testing on animals is.
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Unread May 27th, 2007, 01:27 PM   #13
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There are some nice vegetarian foods.
I'm a vegetarian that doesn't eat vegetables.
So thats got to say something.

I'm still living lol.

Stacey xxx
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Unread May 27th, 2007, 01:28 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy
There are. Many. Groups such as the BUAV would not be campaigning to ban all animal testing if this were not the case. Im fiercely opposed to animal testing, cosmetics and drugs, for several reasons but one of them is simply how dangerous and potentially damaging it is to humans.
People who oppose animal testing are not anti-human nor do we want to see humans suffering, nor do we place animal lives above human lives. Therefore, if torturing animals really was the best way to get medicines, you can bet that we'd have to grudgingly accept it.

Oh, really? What are the alternatives, then? Because that's some really good news-- I certainly hope I didn't come across as thinking animals are any less important than humans. :|
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Unread May 27th, 2007, 01:33 PM   #15
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Animal testing for medical purposes is not useless in the least.

If not for animal testing, more than 60% of our drugs and medical procedures would not exist.

If not for it, most people in intesive care would die. Why? Because we learned most Cardiology and Renal physiology from testing on dogs. We learned almost everything about Pulmonary physiology from cats. Cruelly? Most of the time. Useful? Certainly.

For proof on this, read Guyton's Physiology. Almost everything we know is thanks to animals. Saying that it's useless is a disservice to humans and animals alike.
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Unread May 27th, 2007, 01:39 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpectralDagger
Animal testing for medical purposes is not useless in the least.

If not for animal testing, more than 60% of our drugs and medical procedures would not exist.

If not for it, most people in intesive care would die. Why? Because we learned most Cardiology and Renal physiology from testing on dogs. We learned almost everything about Pulmonary physiology from cats. Cruelly? Most of the time. Useful? Certainly.

For proof on this, read Guyton's Physiology. Almost everything we know is thanks to animals. Saying that it's useless is a disservice to humans and animals alike.

You are talking about experiements and conclusions that were drawn in the past, BEFORE we were as advanced as we are now. I forgot to mention in my first post, I grudgingly accept that in the past, we had no alternatives to animal testing, we weren't advanced enough.

But now? We certainly are.

Much as I hate PETA, they have a fairly good blurb on this:
http://www.peta.org/factsheet/files/...play.asp?ID=87

http://www.aavs.org/testing03.html

This group is my favourite anti-testing organisation
http://www.buav.org/
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Unread May 27th, 2007, 01:45 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy
You are talking about experiements and conclusions that were drawn in the past, BEFORE we were as advanced as we are now. I forgot to mention in my first post, I grudgingly accept that in the past, we had no alternatives to animal testing, we weren't advanced enough.

But now? We certainly are.

Much as I hate PETA, they have a fairly good blurb on this:
http://www.peta.org/factsheet/files/...play.asp?ID=87

http://www.aavs.org/testing03.html

This group is my favourite anti-testing organisation
http://www.buav.org/

Ah yes, in that I can agree.

While we can't be completely independent of animal testing for now, I agree that alternatives have all the advantages.

Alternatives for animal testing are getting a lot of attention right now, but I don't really get is when people say that animal testing is/was useless.
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Unread May 27th, 2007, 02:31 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamu
As much as I agree, it is just as easy to buy vegetarian meat... lots out there, and it tastes so similiar.. easy to get used to...
Er...I'm not sure I'd say it's easy to be a vegetarian. Maybe requires just as much effort as buying free-range products if that's what you're trying to say, but definitely way more difficult than regular old meat-eating.

Anyway, I'm a vegetarian, have been for about six years now, and I'm quite pleased with my diet. However, it is a fact of life that meat is a necessary part (albeit a much smaller part than most people realize) of the human diet. Some people can remain perfectly healthy on an entirely meatless but well-balanced vegetarian diet, some people cannot. Some people simply cannot adequately extract enough quantities of certain vitamins and proteins from non-meat sources. Of course, if you still eat dairy and eggs, it's not as much of a concern usually, but I have known of people (and known one personally) who simply could not remain healthy on a vegetarian diet, no matter how hard they tried to balance it.

Basically, the fact is, you can't make blanket statements about what kind of diet is best, or adequate, or viable for all people. Different people have different digestive needs and troubles. Some people are intolerant or allergic to certain foods, some people need more of certain types of food than others. As wonderful as I'm sure it would be for us to not have to use any other animals for our survival, we, as a species, do.

I quite obviously condone and encourage vegetarianism for those who can do it and have the energy to put into it (it can be difficult at times, simply due to the fact that it limits your food options...more cooking and less frozen meals are required to stay healthy). But I would never judge or think poorly of someone for eating meat and would never try to make them give it up if they didn't want to. At most, I'll encourage people to lower their meat consumption, simply because the quantities of meat most industrial societies eat these days (especially in America) is a bit unhealthy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy
There are. Many. Groups such as the BUAV would not be campaigning to ban all animal testing if this were not the case. Im fiercely opposed to animal testing, cosmetics and drugs, for several reasons but one of them is simply how dangerous and potentially damaging it is to humans.
People who oppose animal testing are not anti-human nor do we want to see humans suffering, nor do we place animal lives above human lives. Therefore, if torturing animals really was the best way to get medicines, you can bet that we'd have to grudgingly accept it.
A lot of those groups really don't understand what's involved in medical testing. They pay a lot of attention to the cruelties but ignore the actual science. There are some medications that would simply not be on the market today if not for animal testing (i.e. insulin). I don't know about other countries, but here in America the ASPCA has put very strict laws on what animal testing can entail. It can't be outright merciless torture. It has to be done as humanely as possible. If that is the only way to create lifesaving medicines, then I have to condone it. It's hypocritical to say it's okay for us to eat meat, when many people may not necessarily even need to, but it's wrong for us to use animals to create life-saving medication.

Yes, there are occasionally biological differences that make test results useless, but these days that's far less of an issue for responsible scientists. To a certain degree, they should be able to recognize what differences might make their test results unviable. If you're testing a product that works on the digestive track, probably not wise to test it on a cow, seeing as they have dramatically different digestive systems. Obviously there will always be occasional small unforseen differences but in the long run, medical animal testing does more good than harm these days in cases where it is necessary.

I definitely agree that where there are alternatives, they should be used, but alternatives are not a constant thing and a lot of these anti-testing groups are not just trying to ban testing for which there are alternatives, but trying to ban all testing altogether. Or in PETA's case, trying to ban all use of animals whatsoever...hypocritically saying we shouldn't own pets because it's cruel and then releasing domesticated animals to the streets to die.

I am, however, against all other animal testing. I don't think animals should be tested on just so I can have safe lipstick. :| Cosmetic animal testing is just wrong. Make-up is not a requirement for our survival. Additionally, most cosmetics companies should be making products using chemical combinations for which there is less of a concern for dangerous side-effects. When trying to cure life-threatening illnesses, the possibility of side-effects occurring is much higher. But make-up isn't fighting off disease. It's just a color that sticks to your face. I don't see why companies need to use potentially dangerous chemicals to make those products, thus necessitating animal testing. The issue probably comes from all these special addons cosmetic companies are trying to include. Once you start worrying about more than just color (worrying about waterproofing, smudge-proofing, eyelash-lengthening, etc.) you have a higher potential for complications. I say let people learn to cope with their lipstick not withstanding a couple meals and go back to simpler cosmetics that don't require animals to be harmed.
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Unread May 27th, 2007, 02:36 PM   #19
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I wouldn't mind eating eggs or drinking milk, because that isn't actually eating the dead body of an animal. So if i stayed of meat, and ate eggs, cheese etc. I'd be healthy.
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Unread May 27th, 2007, 02:48 PM   #20
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But there's still so much cruelty in dairy and egg production. :|
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Unread May 27th, 2007, 02:52 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vekke
But there's still so much cruelty in dairy and egg production. :|
Agreed... the conditions the animals are sometimes kept in are discusting. Just because its not "meat" off the animal doesn't mean they havent been put through pain.
I'm not a vegitarian, but both my friends are. I hate seeing animals in pain, and i dislike people wearing fur, the only fur you'll see me wearing is fake.
However, not all celebritys are like that, allot of them promote animal rights.
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Unread May 27th, 2007, 02:52 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natwraggie
I wouldn't mind eating eggs or drinking milk, because that isn't actually eating the dead body of an animal. So if i stayed of meat, and ate eggs, cheese etc. I'd be healthy.
That's my reasoning. My vegetarianism is part due to my not wanting animals to have to die so I can eat food...but it's also got a lot to do with aesthetics. I'm creeped out by the idea of consuming dead flesh. Therefore eggs and milk don't creep me out, since no eating of dead things is involved.

Vegetarian diets which still include eggs and dairy are much easier to maintain. You still get a lot of calcium, proteins, and vitamin B from those foods. However, you do still have to pay some attention to other things you eat. Eating eggs and dairy isn't a total freebie, as they don't provide all the necessary nutrients in large enough quantities for a vegetarian. I recommend that even vegetarians who eat a lot of eggs and dairy still supplement with other protein and vitamin B rich foods. Tofu and other beans work wonders for this and (in my opinion at least) they are delicious.

Spinach is also a very good food for vegetarians because it's high in iron.

Edit: Replying to ninja-posts:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naquadah
Agreed... the conditions the animals are sometimes kept in are discusting. Just because its not "meat" off the animal doesn't mean they havent been put through pain.
I'm not a vegitarian, but both my friends are. I hate seeing animals in pain, and i dislike people wearing fur, the only fur you'll see me wearing is fake.
However, not all celebritys are like that, allot of them promote animal rights.
-I'll write more later...busy now-
Very true. When I can, I try to buy free-range eggs. Plus I think they tend to taste better. Free range/cage free chickens often end up with better diets because they can feed on insects and wild plants as opposed to just processed cage-feed. And the brown eggs are prettier.
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Unread May 27th, 2007, 03:00 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiritWolf77
Very true. When I can, I try to buy free-range eggs. Plus I think they tend to taste better. Free range/cage free chickens often end up with better diets because they can feed on insects and wild plants as opposed to just processed cage-feed. And the brown eggs are prettier.
Ditto XD It's usually allot safer to buy free range too, because you know the animals been kept in good condition, treated fairly, hence less likely to have some sort of desease/ illness. I say less likely because of course you can still get ill from free range products.
And brown eggs ftw, they're nice with scrambled egg on toast XD
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Unread May 27th, 2007, 03:04 PM   #24
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You guys make me feel terrible for eating meat. xD I don't wanna be a vegetarian, it's too much work... I am lazy.
And I hate vegetables. And fruit. I can't stomach them.

I mean I like the idea. But it's just not for me. I believe that being omnivores, it's only natural that we eat meat. But it certainly would be nice if people could find a more humane way to kill the animals we eat.

I love animals though. To death. Fur is sick. And testing... ESPECIALLY something as useless and trivial as cosmetics... is terrible.

Animals should be treated with respect and dignity. It's a shame some people don't see that.
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Unread May 27th, 2007, 03:05 PM   #25
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I don't eat egg. Mainly for the fact that I don't like it. I don't see a problem really with free range eggs. I think the reason I don't eat egg is purely because I don't like it.

I don't eat fish either. I don't understand some vegetarians that eat fish. The majority say it's because theres a 'high population' of fish. But actually thats untrue. The reason why fish like Cod and stuff has upped so highly in price is because of the high demand and if they go with that high demand, there will litrally be no cod left.

I do drink milk though. I can't see any harm in milking a cow and I need to calcium because my diet is terrible because of me not eating the way a vegetarian should eat. Thats why I have to take vitamins and stuff.

Stacey xxx
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